Curse

Blame the Monks · Feb 27, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...6-pvetopvp.php

Disappointing article imo. Very condescending, with numerous jabs at PvEers, including how "someone who beats the game needs to unlearn the game," etc. Kind of sad, because some decent, if superficial, info is lost in the arrogant tone.

But the pve to pvp transition is a relevant issue imo and worth discussing. I always try to encourage my PvE friends to PvP more, but many people never really get interested in PvP. I believe the reason so many people don't make the transition is not incompetence (despite the article's sneers) or lack of interest, but because of flaws in the game itself.

I think the reason so few people transition into PvP is 1) the game has poor support for learning PvP, forming PvP groups, and playing PvP casually, 2) the game has very poor pvp rewards, especially for casual pvp, and 3) the pvp community is generally hostile, arrogant, elitist, and nasty. The poor rewards have recently begun to improve (HA wins are much more rewarding now), but that is only for a select few. For casual players, PvP has no reward (other than the inherent reward for winning -- faction is not a reward. It is a tool at best. And emotes/titles are not a real reward either and take sick amounts of grind to boot). Group forming anet tried to improve with party forming, but the system is still terrible. The social and grind barriers to PvP are staggering and many people just don't want to invest hundreds of hours to earn the tools required plus hundreds more hours of time to learn to excel at the game just to then have to spend an hour or more each day just to form a casual team.

What do you think? What got you interested in PvP (or why aren't you interested)? Did you struggle with these issues and if so, how did you overcome them?

Stormlord Alex · Feb 27, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I wanna slap that dude. Mending sucks in PvE too.

And... I agree, Blame - there is very little turorial on how to move on to PvP in PvE. I found out what works and what doesn't because my guild *back in the day* ran a fair number of Guild Battles, and as a willing (and none-too-shabby) monk, I saw firsthand what other teams, and our own team, ran - I saw what was successful (warrior adrenal spikes, blindbot eles, boonprot) and what sucked (nukers, mending, etc.) and from that *valuable* starting experience I knew roughly how to build PvP chars.

IMO the closest thing around for transition would be AB - it is mostly about battling the NPCs, like PvE, so standard nuker builds are effective to a limited egree - but if you pay attention, you will see people running good builds you can learn from (getting spiked down in 4 seconds by a SP/burst 'sin and going 'ah...').

Lonesamurai · Feb 27, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Worst State of the Game article EVER!!!

Terra Xin · Feb 27, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

1) the game has poor support for learning PvP, forming PvP groups, and playing PvP casually,

1) Isle of the Nameless needs an urgent and much needed update. Too many new installments in PvP since this place was last updated.
2) I agree, but this feature is also lacking in PvE as well. Especially considering that noone uses Search :S.
3) Random Arena is the most common form of casual PvP play, that's all I'll say on that matter.

The Bloodrose · Feb 27, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Adam Sunstrom some village is missing its idiot. You are the weakest link. Anet needs to let you go for that poorly composed and horrible article. Again my threads about PvPers getting more love then PvEers. Well theres more fans for the flames.

I PvP when I get bored from PvE. I used to do Random Arenas until I got tired of the shit talking from other players. I used to do HA, but waiting an hour plus just to get a team got boring real fast. Now the only PvP I do is Hero battles, or festival events. I spent the better part of the weekend playing in the dragon ball arena. The fact that everyone was on a level playing field, was the real winner there. I had a blast. I think thats the only PvP I will ever do. It took me a year to get my r3 Deer, and I am happy with that. But its PvE for me until the next festival event.

boxterduke · Feb 27, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

heh, the thread on gwo is about 17 pages now

but anyway:

Just saw the article on the gw site, great thats what we need, more crappy articles.
And if he thinks mending is hailed by many pvers as the most useful skill in the game then he know crap.

He has been playing since 2004 but I think he is playing some other game.

Before writing an article, please do some investigative journalism first.

Anet, please take that crap from your site

Alleji · Feb 27, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

As I said in the other thread, I'm actually offended that someone got paid for writing up shit like that.

A couple months ago, I would write a much better article for anet on the same topic for free if they published it on their site. Now, I just stopped caring. PvP has clearly gone down the gutter and this crap they're putting out to attract players is too little and too late.

Hell Raiser · Feb 27, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Lmao, Mending IS hailed by many PvE players (55monk?Whammo?Newplayers? and more) but if you want to argue about the Mending statement go to http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10124187
(BTW he didn't say it is one of the greatest skills in PvE, he said people many PvE'ers believe it to be)

More so on topic... I don't see it as an attack on PvE players, I think he is just trying to say that you need to forget everything you have learned in PvE if you want to transition into PvP (wich is true, PvE and PvP strats differ greatly). I'm pretty sure you don't use Remove Hex or Rebirth in PvP, at least I hope you don't O.o

Swift Thief · Feb 27, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

It has some good information for people who are new to PvP. I didn't know that monks shouldn't bring a res.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Geez, take a deep breath people. It's obvious that Adam Sunstrom was directing his article at people that are curious but timid about PvP but are primarily PvE. Making that transition isn't always obvious for the novice.

He basically is covering some very fundamental concepts for that rather large portion of the Guild Wars player base that has hesitated jumping into PvP.

NEWSFLASH people: most players aren't PvP'ing, ANet wants them to try it out because it is a core part of the game.

It's a superb article that's aimed at getting people to not be "scared away" from PvP.

And it is certainly a lot more help than most of you "know-it-alls" offer.

Hell Raiser · Feb 27, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Geez, take a deep breath people. It's obvious that Adam Sunstrom was directing his article at people that are curious but timid about PvP but are primarily PvE. Making that transition isn't always obvious for the novice.

He basically is covering some very fundamental concepts for that rather large portion of the Guild Wars player base that has hesitated jumping into PvP.

NEWSFLASH people: most players aren't PvP'ing, ANet wants them to try it out because it is a core part of the game.

It's a superb article that's aimed at getting people to not be "scared away" from PvP.

And it is certainly a lot more help than most of you "know-it-alls" offer.

/agreed, when I first started PvP way back when (sometime in '05), I could find plenty of people willing to help me get into it. Now if I go and ask for someones help they call me a noob and tell me to go back to PvE. what ArenaNet is doing here is good, elitists and Hardcore PvP'ers push PvE people away and Anet is trying to push back.

sixdartbart · Feb 27, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Question from a long time and successful player of both PvE and PvP;
What is this "mending" of which he speaks?

But seriously I think one of the main reasons players don't or are hesitant to move from PvE to PvP is a lack of knowledge about it and a fear of being treated badly from the "1337" PvPers, and lets face it we all know how a new player can/will be treated by alot of these people.

No solution here except maybe try to help out a new player with advise and or patience and we may actually find some talented players who would have never been around otherwise.

Omega X · Feb 27, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

It's a superb article that's aimed at getting people to not be "scared away" from PvP.

Oh the article is not the thing that will keep them from being scared away but nice try tho.

I'm personally not offended by the article in any way being primarily a PvE only player. But its going to take more than a 1 page article of weak jabs and trash talking 7 spells to keep them from being scared away.

FoxBat · Feb 27, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Geez, take a deep breath people. It's obvious that Adam Sunstrom was directing his article at people that are curious but timid about PvP but are primarily PvE. Making that transition isn't always obvious for the novice.

It would help if he didn't talk down to them so much.

Other than that I did find some useful information. Nice to see an explanation of why popular bad skills are bad rather than simply dismissing their noobishness.

RichPowers · Feb 27, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I'm the player Mr. Adam is writing to: I've played nothing but PvE (save a few random arena battles) and quit WoW months before that game introduced its significant PvP updates. In other words, I've only experienced the PvE side of MMORPGs. Frankly I don't know where to start on the PvP element.

I appreciate Adam, and Anet, trying to encourage more people to PvP. But the article was lightweight at best and didn't really answer my questions. What caught my attention: "There's a huge hurdle here."

Exactly! By publishing this piece does Anet also acknowledge that? So instead of having people write articles, why doesn't Anet reduce or outright eliminate the hurdles in-game?

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I must say that I am constantly amazed at the convoluted thought process that some of you possess.

Quote:

Painting Mending with the traits of "accessible, and fairly cheap source of healing" is also ludicrous

Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. He stated, and I believe correctly, that most casual PvE'ers consider Mending to be useful.

Quote:

And if he thinks mending is hailed by many pvers as the most useful skill in the game then he know crap.

You are going to let one characterization trip you up. Try taking a sentence and applying it to the context of what he is saying.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mending is used more in PvE than in PvP. Anyone disagree?

Quote:

"tanking only works against AI opponents" - no, no it does not Mr.Adam.

Puhhhhleeeze!

Players don't have coded aggro, hate and threat tables.

Stop trying to rewrite game terminology by making the term "tanking" apply to PvP. Sunstrom is correct to point out that you can't "grab" aggro from other players using taunts, etc. He advises that you leave the PvE tanking skills off your quick bar when you go to PvP.

Sunstrom:

"A PvP Warrior needs to focus on dealing damage, because opponents merely ignore defensive Warriors and go after softer targets. "

I think that's fairly practical advice for most PvP scenarios involving a Warrior.

You seriously are going to contest that point?

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

Oh the article is not the thing that will keep them from being scared away but nice try tho.

I'm personally not offended by the article in any way being primarily a PvE only player. But its going to take more than a 1 page article of weak jabs and trash talking 7 spells to keep them from being scared away.

The ARTICLE is welcoming PvE'ers to try out PvP and does so in a easily understood and straightforward manner. What drives people away from many things in Guild Wars is the elitist attitude that dominates PvP. It goes with the territory. Nothing new about that.

But it's gets silly when people get offended at an article that is a basic introduction to PvP for non-PvP'ers.
==============================
"In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp."
==============================
I think he did a good job.

Hell Raiser · Feb 27, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

Oh the article is not the thing that will keep them from being scared away but nice try tho.

I'm personally not offended by the article in any way being primarily a PvE only player. But its going to take more than a 1 page article of weak jabs and trash talking 7 spells to keep them from being scared away.

He wasn't trash talking those spells, he even listed advantages to them in PvE, he is saying (with truth) that they do not belong in PvP.

Myrkwid · Feb 27, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

In my opinion the article has just one problem: it looks like the typical pvp(only) players viewpoint of the things. I could go on a lenghty report about mending etc now, but short:
I can live with most of it, some points amused me, some irritated me, some were right.

But all that's written is not the reason why many prople don't move from pve to pvp. It's not the builds, it's not even that you have to "unlearn" anything, you just have to adapt a bit, just like when first entering any endgame area.
If you really WANT to start pvping, technically everything you need to learn the first needed things are implemented. We, back in the days, had to look how we got defeated the first few times (just like in pve) and then adapted, but now you even have observer mode as a tool for looking what and how people play.
Basically pvp is somehow like pve, just the enemies have better skillbars and act in a more chaotic and less predictable way

You don't jump right into highranked gvg, you start your way in TA and from there through HA to GvG. And that's where the problems start. TA is pretty friendly towards casual play, but HA is definately not (the reasons have been discussed to death, buildslavery, fotms, rank, etc). In addition there is something missing in between those modes. 8vs8 HA and a semicasual 6vs6 mode or something like that is needed.

Also:
1.) many simply don't like pvp and don't even want to try it, it's not their playing style
2.) many don't feel pvp is rewarding
3.) many, and I think that are the most, feel offended by the rather hostile tone thats used by the pvp community. And that's the most severe problem and it's homegrown by the pvpcommunity.
4.) I know many who don't have a pvp-slot and their pvecharacters are simply lacking and subpaar to any pvponly character due to lack of flexibility in equipment or skills etc. Nobody wanted to take them in their team.

Point 4 is a reason that's not to forget. Almost all players I know ingame come from a pure roleplaying background. The lack of slots hurted them and they were almost forced to fill all slots with pvecharacters and then they either farmed like crazy or were basically unable to pvp outside of the casual modes.
As a start a PvP-equipmentbuilder being able to spit out pvponly gear for rpg-characters and the ability to salvage runes out of your armor without destrying it would help tremendously.

An article saying "mending is THE pve skill, but leave it there and don't use your stance tank, then you will win HoH" does not really help much. Ok, don't nail me on that last sentence, but I hope you understand what I mean with it

BryanM · Feb 27, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. Umm, he didn't "paint" anything. Umm, he didn't "paint" anything.

Mending is possibly the most expensive heal in the game - casting time, efficiency, and wasting a potential skillslot. He certainly did say it was fairly cheap, when it is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Puhhhhleeeze! Players don't have coded aggro, hate and threat tables.

You can not read.

Learn to read.

There is absolutely no "tanking" in PvE in Guildwars outside of the conditions I mentioned. Learn to learn.

Also read.

Kakumei · Feb 27, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanM

There is absolutely no "tanking" in PvE in Guildwars

I don't know if you know what tanking means.